Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. For more information about James River Church and to get connected, click the link below! your post, and this one i read on facebook yesterday: I then stood up and pointed out that 30 lines below the famous quote All men are created equal the Declaration of Independence refers to Natives as merciless Indian savages. http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? They may have been totally shocked when Mark began to spew his rude, humiliating, oppressive descriptions and warped perceptions of scripture and men and women. Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. What am I saying? In his case, trust had to be earned, for obvious reasons. Totally. If one other person had confirmed my concerns then I would not have pushed my data points aside as just being something only I had an issue with. Nor to any of the other dead bodies behind the bus. I wish just one person would have spoken up sooner. I think the guys a jerk and theres plenty of evidence out there for it. I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. they get tired of hearing his kind words they shove it into his mouth. There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. James River Church attenders should google What happens if you get a bad teacher. Hey Sam you may be interested in how Jews interpret the Mashiach (messiah) passages. They stirred up the people now the mob is forming. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility, and genuine interest in people. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 It is like embezzlers working around money. He is listening for your litl sweet voice! "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. Wonder what else is in the Acts29 playbook that we havent seen yet! Well-meaning people are attempting to put Jesus in structures that do not foster the expression of his life in the saints. Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? . Not a fan but many are. The disciples send him off to Tarsus and after that-there was peace for a time in the churches in Judea, Galilee and Samaria.:o). No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. The worst thing in the world right now for Chandler is that Mark is in making the Christian news cycle. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. We will definitely check it out. The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. Associating with Driscoll might make them feel younger and edgy. The worship leaders are all carefully coached and choreographed on how to appear more worshipful and fake their collective ecstatic elation over being one with their maker. Its all good until (insert question or issue). (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. I didnt feel pressured. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. In a statement to the Ozarks Independent, James River Church said it has taken temperatures at the door, sanitized its children's areas and common areas multiple times per day, provided masks. Covenants, ruling elders, etc. I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. As the CEO of MHC was MD completely unaware of what was going on with the Global Fund? Yes he was forgiven, but be spent years away from his former life, maybe to relearn what Christ Jesus was about. Connection ends, shunning begins and the cycle begins all over again with the next batch of newbies. Because for me, it is the center of the practice of Christianity, and I had missed it. It was titled "A Biblical Look at Human Sexuality." i dont know what the answer is except to not get under the pastor leader concept ever. He later boasts that he did not immediately go get instruction from the apostles in Jerusalem, but he does not say exactly why. well this world is full of executives that get caught in sin and crime and immorality that give wonderful speeches of how sorry they are and then they turn around and get a promotion and never give a single thought to the people they destroyed on their way to the top. Really? He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. Lydia wrote: full of manly manness and praise of human strength and wisdom and all the attributes mark has himself. He had no idea. i would rather be in fellowship with people that realise they still have sin but instead of rationalizing or blameshifting, show fruit of the Spirit in overcoming it. Years ago, he spoke from the pulpit against the expansion of casino gambling in Missouri. Actually, they have as much as said that there is a good root (their doctrines/practices that accidentally produced some bad fruit. if mark is not truly repentant, (which is totally conceivable since he has never apologized for anything except being too unkind in firing people and running people into the ground under his God given authority) then this could be compared, (by sin levelers who will be quick to show up here and defend him)this could be compared to Jordan Root getting right back in the mission field and preaching about what happens when women and heathens in the press persecute godly people accused of child porn addictions with no evidence. What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. Join Us As we Welcome Our Speaker, Apostle Mark Driscoll, The Forgiven. pic.twitter.com/FwaVnYEZIi. The hyper romanticized cinematic version of the uber cool Che trumps the reality of his bloody terrorist tactics and the horrors and oppression that his brand of communism inflicted on others. Lets see. @ sam: OT but of interest: the former pastor of a megachurch in Richmond, VA goes on trial tomorrow on charges of sexually abusing two minors in Texas some years ago. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. Very simple. I still dont think he understands the harms he has done. "We all have desires that are warped as a result of our fallen nature: pride, selfishness, greed, anger, bitterness, unforgiveness, lust, envy, covetousness, chemical addiction," Lindell said. Im all for forgiveness but this complete whitewash of history when someone offers up an opportunistic Im sorry is not something I see in day to day life. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. We know that Driscoll should never have been a pastor: lack of formal qualifications, lack of maturity in the faith (too young, and never been a member of a church before he started his own), lack of maturity in general; Whats worse, total lack of good character. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. I believe in forgiveness, but cautious about putting such folks back on the platform. The guests are members and attendees (because many regulars never joined). I really do believe that Driscoll has sociopathic tendencies. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. His messages change in content, but not in root meaning. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. Mark Driscoll should not be a preacher ever again. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. Brian Houston, pastor of Hillsong Church, issued a statement over the weekend, which drew considerable media attention. Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. All the more reason that Driscoll appears arrogant and pompous to me and doesnt at all seem to understand the damage hes caused. was an attention getter. I used to buy into this,thinking it is such wisdom to see ourselves in the examples of scripture, until I realized that we never seem to see ourselves as the villain. One co worker attends and stated that they requested to see W2s and that he tithe accordingly when he was inquiring to become a member. there is a minor child involved that both of them love deeply. actually getting behind the wheel of a car again will probably be the hardest thing he does, if he ever even wants to drive again. And probably they wont. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. HUG so aptly quotes GK Chesterton, and let me paraphrase her, i tweeted: The singles have a lot of money to be exploited as well, but churches are stuck in a rut of trying to fleece the married folks. In Driscolls case he didnt even offer up the grudging apology specifically for the lives he ruined, the corruption, or the abuse of those at Mars Hill. Wouldnt you encourage him to find another vocation? As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. LT wrote: I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! However, you are on to something with the radical chic concept. Even if Houston hadnt properly researched before the demise of MH, surely he must have learned something to have made the decision to downgrade MD from speaker to interviewee. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. There are some Calvinists who go in the opposite direction and are very humbled by their monergistic view of salvation. I arrived a little late here, and this has likely already been mentioned (I havent read all comments). The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. Hosting a giant event without distancing or masking is irresponsible and insulting to the people on the front lines of this crisis, most especially the health care workers who are overwhelmed. Maybe six months from now, therell be another terrible story, and well know that the BSd us. I hope others will join in at places like this blog and help shed light on local megas in their area. rather than come in glory he came in humility. Most people have more sunk into that cult than they do their homes. Its easy to be friendly, humble, attentive, polite, , to your peers and to your superiors. :o) I would view it like this: If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are worth investigating with openess and transparancy. They didnt fail. when the pastor first says, his humility he almost breaks out laughing (cause maybe he knows how stupid it is to say that). Title No one except lemmings following blindly to where the MoG leads believes them when they say that they only learned about certain facts recently. Ill be honest I dont see Christ in it. Hillsong is an international megachurch based in Australia that has exported its influence to major global cities and into churches music across the United States. Interestingly, he chose the title of his message to be 'Paul the Forgiven' and goes on to say that Paul has a name change because of a life change. I sincerely hope Mark Driscoll's remarks are about this specific passage and not about himself. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. They sing and wave their arms and hug and praise other givers. 15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. They stay in and around the very thing that ruined them in the first place. Kids will experience life-giving messages and TONS of fun as they watch content created just for them. Persecuted, but You cant criticize me for a moment. My Comment was Deleted vinegar is disinfectant for wiping yourself. The he takes him back to Antioch where they work together for a year with converted Gentiles. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, and that other pastor has a history of patterns of behavior and teachings that are destructive it is wise to ask pastor 1 if he has checked him out before he promotes him. Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. Only the hero. Che Guevera was a die hard Communist who actively conspired with the Soviet Union to turn America into a long nuclear winter landscape that would put Winterfell to shame. http://mercysurvivors.com/2014/03/06/mercy-ministries-peru-309k-and-no-cherry/#more-1348. 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! I would say he was a tyrannical charlatan that used people for his own purposes and claiming it was of Christ. Some people believe that God put them there. Ditto Bent Meyer who opposed the consolidation of powerful. Driscoll, IMHO, is completely unsuited for any position of authority. The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. yeah, that pastors comment is kinda too scary for me to think about lol. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. The mighty Kari Jobe is featured in some of the faking it videos they play in the classes. Did you miss a tithe payment? Just show-biz. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. IMO, They are still who they are. I think Dr Fundy left out the irony/sarcasm tags introduced with HTML 5.5. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. sponge is used as toilet paper. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . I think what became public is enough to realize they are not safe, not mature but toxic and have been all along. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. When Robert brags about lunching with Greg Abbott, golfing with George W Bush or being Rick Santorums spiritual advisor, it makes me feel ill. The lack of regard for the masking ordinance and therefore its fellow community members by this venue and its occupants is not condoned by the CCHD, the agency said. In my opinion Gateway is a cult not a church so they lose their Winters Bone protection status. Did he have liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE(TM) he was (chuckle chuckle)? Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. He needs to clean up the mess that he made. starts with: And as long as they do, it will continue. Mark' Driscoll's message has been uploaded on the church website, and we have included it here should you choose to watch it. How to Resign from a Church Pouring? When he walked up to speak with me I politely told him neednt spend time with me because I lived about 4 hours away RT and, therefore, wouldnt be attending his church again. and that it is ok to debate that point in public. The authentic community I was referring to is the it term/concept in megas for 2015. Just typing this has made me a bit queasy. Thats a great question to think about. Personally I do not believe God would ever anoint a blatant false teacher. I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. What is tragic is that these events will lead everyone who has two braincells to rub together to come to the following default conclusions: James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas And yes, Baptists and other evangelicals have evolved to believing similar using other methods of mediation for people. The Weapons Of Our Warfare Are Not Carnal?. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. Are they involved in a joint venture? Silly me! As Gram wrote above these are relationships (if you can call it that) built on trust. Not that I dont admire Saul/Paul. Whats worse, total lack of good character. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. Great insight. Im so used to the megas Velcro bars where they only care about you if they can slap some Velcro on you to make you come back so you can become a tithe payer. This is not a measure of faith. https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-establishing-and-building-trust/. I do feel bad for the guy in many ways. He diverts attention from the real purpose, the Gospel, to himself. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. He was engaging, funny and gracious. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. Thats exactly what I was thinking last weekend! helpful or even hopeful in terms of my eternal afterlife. A cult expert I spoke at length with said it may be harder to find the right one, but a smaller church is the way to go. The James River Church Joplin Campus, located at 1850 S Maiden Ln, Joplin, MO 64801 now has a permanent location! The Rev. There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. (Jesus is a pastor?) His appeal, then and now, has much to do with his looks plus a perception of him being anti-establishment, which he was. There is great comfort to be found in that. Because 12 years ago Walter Salles made an awesome movie about him called The Motorcycle Diaries starring the gentle heartthrob Gael Garcia Bernal as Che. My guess is that their Calvinism isnt the root problem here. However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. He told me he appreciated my column and my work at the News-Leader. @ Abi Miah: This one was different. As I was getting ready for church last Sunday morning, I quickly checked my Facebook feed for any news and saw the this headline (see screen shot below): I 'shared' the article from an Australian news source, along with a comment: "Mark Driscoll needs to step away from the microphone for a long season of contemplation.". Active homosexuals will not make it into heaven, Lindell said in the sermon. When I read your comment, this suddenly popped into my head. People who are not religious, like me, are generally skeptical of religious institutions and their goals. LOL! Even if youre looking at Christianity from a strictly business like mindset, I dont see how its good marketing or profitable to do the sexist shtick. But what does that mean in the larger picture? Our heart at James River Church has always been to minister to people in our community. No coffee bar, etc. He saw it as bad government.". Its the same game he has played. . Guess well see. some things i noticed are in (parenthesis) I assumed that it was just me and 25,000 other people had no issue. God,I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire? I do hope he finds wholeness. It is ok to ask for openess and transparancy. I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. So, where are the reasonable people? FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. Its just another singing and acting gig for many of them. That does not even mention the eradication of those who did not agree and his cognitive dissonance concerning Hiroshima and working to bring USSR Nuclear missles in Cuba claiming it would be good to use them on Imperialist American. In 2010, Outreach magazine listed James River as one of the fastest-growing churches in America. Are you not voting for the candidates and issues Gateway told you to? *MD and Mark Demoss calculated an irresistible snow job, tailored just for pentecostalworld (who are generally open to things without empirical proof). He said it makes sense that the word "sin" would appear multiple times in a Biblical discussion of homosexuality. Its appalling that through your words and actions you are able to re-injure the real victims with such ease all while smiling and chuckling on your stage. CCHD is extremely concerned about the health and well-being of all our community members and particularly those who attended the high-capacity event over the weekend. If so you may be onto something. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. Last week GW was desperately trying to give away as many copies as possible of some book COO Tom Lane wrote called Letters From a Dad to a Graduate. Yes, thanks for this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/, http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts, http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308, http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21, http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/, http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . My point with Che is to draw a parallel. There is no reason why he should be a pastor again. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. of course i have no idea really what is driving mark driscoll but thats what i think it might be. As I listened, I couldn't help but wonder where things stand between Mark and those he threw under the bus. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. well i cant finish watching the whole thing. Which is all to say that if he was a wanted man back in Jerusalem and the believers did not trust him, then some of the credit for his going away for a few years goes to those who did not let him just keep on keeping on, despite some abrupt lateral entry into proto-christianity. Mega churches are asking people to step back from the reality of how they effect people and just go along with a bunch of rules and covenants and christianeese and let them stay in their positions cause their friends say they are changed. In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. Why would either (or any) group that knew him in his previous state ever trust him without lots of evidence of change. In a statement Monday, the Christian County Health Department said they also received numerous complaints from the community about the services and urged those who attended to monitor themselves for COVID-19 symptoms over the next 14 days. But if I had trusted my gut at the time I would have admitted that staff viewing the members as guests is so far outside Body of Christ thinking it should not require an explanation. In other words, his behavior did change. (if you heard anything on the internet its not true, mark scrubbed his site already so if its on the internet a bunch of liars wrote it) we dont want to shoot the wounded. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight. Seriously? Bingo. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. They wear what they believe are trendy shirts typically untucked to cover the middle aged spread with skinny jeans. That is certainly not an idea they got from the Bible. Welcome to the James River Church YouTube Channel where you will find weekly encouraging sermons from Pastor John Lindell and others! (I saw a guy do this on a live stage in England once, on a YouTube video. . You would have thought Piper would have caught on at some point. Some of it probably is. We have been led by God to support another ministry. Almost all of them pointed to Gods leading. It certainly looked like they had been coached on what to say. I hope you encourage them to visit TWW. Unfortunately, during this difficult season, the focus has been taken off of Jesus and put on me, and that is not what The ROC is all about., http://www.richmond.com/news/local/crime/article_8c6b7719-c4af-523b-b3a6-3c6131e32fd3.html.
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